I'VE GOT IT!

[johnpalmer]

Finally... I finally found the word I'm looking for.

Yes, laws should be based in moral principles, but laws should be based in morality, not holiness. Morality is that set of things that are right and wrong; holiness is that kind of stuff that you feel your religion commands that isn't based upon accepted ideas of right and wrong.

So, you can certainly legislate against non-consensual sex of all forms. You can't legislate against consensual sexual acts that are unholy.

You can legislate against theft and murder and so forth; you can't legislate against breaking the sabbath or eating pork.

Comments

[valkyrwench.livejournal.com]

I maintain that the world needs less morals and more ethics.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

I agree, but right now, the word "morality" has legs. Talking about "ethics" could be clobbered, but talking about "morality, not holiness" could make moral people nod and say "Yeah, that makes sense."

[valkyrwench.livejournal.com]

Morality still has the implication that you're telling people how to behave. With ethics, you give them a foundation and make them think for themselves. Which, in itself, is an argument to why it would never work in this country...but I still believe we should teach ethics and critical thinking.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Remember, I agree with you. But, even if you look at what you just said, "telling people how to behave". Well, behaving includes "don't hurt each other unjustly, be honest, etc.."

The best way to break down the idea that laws should be based in morals (and with Republicans in control, the implication is "and morals come from (an idolatrous form of) Christianity") is to give people an idea that they think they already knew (and most of them did)... "Yeah, but there's more than one kind of morals, isn't there?"

Really, the difference between "morals" and "ethics" can be awfully hazy, and sometimes the biggest difference is the flavor of the word. "Morals" have been used so often is such slimey ways that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, sometimes. But I do understand the appeal of the word and the idea.

[valkyrwench.livejournal.com]

Point taken. I understand the appeal of the word, too, but for some of us, it just has really bad connotations. I'd love to steer away from using that word, and substituting ethics instead.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference between ethics and morals is that ethics requires you to think. Morals don't.

[nsingman.livejournal.com]

Your distinctions seem a bit arbitrary, John. I've met vegetarians who would happily legislate against eating pork, for example, on the basis of no "holiness" whatsoever. Perhaps you mean that laws shouldn't be based solely on a religious prohibition? Still arbitrary, though; I see no reason why atheist prudes should be allowed to outlaw marijuana or prostitution, but religious prudes shouldn't.

The motives don't matter; the restrictive laws do.

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

Well... you're right, the distinction isn't useful for answering questions, but I think it's useful for expressing the question. Even if you say the government should be allowed to legislate "morality", it clearly shouldn't be allowed to legislate holiness, because, face it, for any one religion's holiness, there's almost certainly another that proclaims the same thing unholy.

Think of it this way: I'm saying is that you, as a libertarian, think a lot more is "legislating holiness" than I would. Taxation? That's legislating the holiness of an undefinable (Well, infinitely redefinable)"common good". So, we could debate where 'morality' ends and 'holiness' begins. But, if we used that structure, at least we'd know where we disagreed, and better understand why.

[ruth-lawrence.livejournal.com]

Well, you *can* but you shounoughta.

This is a good clarification!