Interesting quote...

Quoted under fair use: from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4508782/

Meanwhile, hundreds of gays and lesbians have wed in San Francisco since the court was asked Feb. 25 and Feb. 27 to intervene. Lockyer and the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative group that says a marriage should be between a man and woman, said the court’s action was urgently needed because thousands of newly married gays might otherwise think they enjoy the same rights granted other married couples — such as the right to receive the other spouse’s property in the absence of a will.
(end quoted material)

Translation: the anti-marriage group's statement was that it's a terrible thing, when people who don't have rights think that they do... and it must be stopped!

It's good to have them admit that they are opposed to gay people having the same rights as straights.

Another talking point to consider:

Not everyone who opposes gay marriage does so out of hatred.

However, the anti-marriage side *IS* unalterably linked to hatred and hateful people.

The pro-marriage side simply wants people to enjoy the rights and responsibilities of marriage.

BTW: There are people who claim to speak for Jesus on both sides. Jesus said *specifically* of those who speak in his name, "by their fruits shall you know them".

On one side, there's hate. On the other, there isn't.

One side is afraid of people even *thinking* they have rights. The other is demanding the same rights everyone else gets.

I wonder which side would feel like averting their eyes, if Jesus came down to have a little chat?

Further little notes:

"Rights and responsibilities of marriage" is a good phrase to use in this debate.

Yes, we *are* the pro-marriage side, even if that *does* piss off the anti-marriage side.

When people start talking about how marriage has always been between a man and a woman, try out something like this:

"For all of human history, people who've loved each other have sought to join together, and for over a thousand years, even the Christians believed this. But then the hatred started. That didn't stop the marriages between gay folks... it just made them rarer, and rarer, because they had to be afraid."

And, a good, clear summary of the battleground:

"This is about the rights of two people who love each other, and want to be lifelong partners, to obtain legal recognition of their partnership."

"Legal recognition" is important... there's nothing about religion here, and no question about whether someone has to insist that their marriage is valid or not. If every anti-marriage person wants to insist that only man-woman marriages are 'real', they can. They can also say all us non-believers are going to hell, and frequently do.

Interesting quote...

Quoted under fair use: from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4508782/

Meanwhile, hundreds of gays and lesbians have wed in San Francisco since the court was asked Feb. 25 and Feb. 27 to intervene. Lockyer and the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative group that says a marriage should be between a man and woman, said the court’s action was urgently needed because thousands of newly married gays might otherwise think they enjoy the same rights granted other married couples — such as the right to receive the other spouse’s property in the absence of a will.
(end quoted material)

Translation: the anti-marriage group's statement was that it's a terrible thing, when people who don't have rights think that they do... and it must be stopped!

It's good to have them admit that they are opposed to gay people having the same rights as straights.

Another talking point to consider:

Not everyone who opposes gay marriage does so out of hatred.

However, the anti-marriage side *IS* unalterably linked to hatred and hateful people.

The pro-marriage side simply wants people to enjoy the rights and responsibilities of marriage.

BTW: There are people who claim to speak for Jesus on both sides. Jesus said *specifically* of those who speak in his name, "by their fruits shall you know them".

On one side, there's hate. On the other, there isn't.

One side is afraid of people even *thinking* they have rights. The other is demanding the same rights everyone else gets.

I wonder which side would feel like averting their eyes, if Jesus came down to have a little chat?

Further little notes:

"Rights and responsibilities of marriage" is a good phrase to use in this debate.

Yes, we *are* the pro-marriage side, even if that *does* piss off the anti-marriage side.

When people start talking about how marriage has always been between a man and a woman, try out something like this:

"For all of human history, people who've loved each other have sought to join together, and for over a thousand years, even the Christians believed this. But then the hatred started. That didn't stop the marriages between gay folks... it just made them rarer, and rarer, because they had to be afraid."

And, a good, clear summary of the battleground:

"This is about the rights of two people who love each other, and want to be lifelong partners, to obtain legal recognition of their partnership."

"Legal recognition" is important... there's nothing about religion here, and no question about whether someone has to insist that their marriage is valid or not. If every anti-marriage person wants to insist that only man-woman marriages are 'real', they can. They can also say all us non-believers are going to hell, and frequently do.

"Outsourcing creates jobs!"

That's what we're told. Outsourcing will cut costs, and with lower costs, businesses can expand, and create more jobs.

Sending jobs overseas is *good* for America, they say.

Let me think about this, really hard.

A company ships programming to India, cutting salaries to a third of their previous high.

It now has 2/3 of their previous payroll to reinvest, and grow, and soon they can re-hire the number of people they fired from their programming team for "good, high paying, highly skilled jobs".

Why, exactly, aren't they going to outsource *those* jobs to India, as well? And re-invest the 2/3 of the payroll they're saving to grow, etc.?

When, precisely, do the companies stop sending all the jobs they can overseas, with all the wonderful savings coming home to roost?

I'm not going to debate whether it's better to have "free trade" or whether "protectionism" is good... but the reasoning being used in this debate is starting to unravel quickly, by people who really ought to know better.

"Outsourcing creates jobs!"

That's what we're told. Outsourcing will cut costs, and with lower costs, businesses can expand, and create more jobs.

Sending jobs overseas is *good* for America, they say.

Let me think about this, really hard.

A company ships programming to India, cutting salaries to a third of their previous high.

It now has 2/3 of their previous payroll to reinvest, and grow, and soon they can re-hire the number of people they fired from their programming team for "good, high paying, highly skilled jobs".

Why, exactly, aren't they going to outsource *those* jobs to India, as well? And re-invest the 2/3 of the payroll they're saving to grow, etc.?

When, precisely, do the companies stop sending all the jobs they can overseas, with all the wonderful savings coming home to roost?

I'm not going to debate whether it's better to have "free trade" or whether "protectionism" is good... but the reasoning being used in this debate is starting to unravel quickly, by people who really ought to know better.

One thing I do miss about alt.callahans...

... are the PLAQUE posts, to honor the dead. It's something to do, when there's literally nothing you can do.

To too-damn-many people - 199 at the last count I saw - murdered in Madrid, and to the hundreds and hundreds of injured...

And to the many multiples of people with gaps in their lives, and pain in their hearts.

And finally... to justice. I hope it comes swiftly and surely.

Let's all remember that some 900 days ago, Spain stood and mourned for us... and hope that there will never be a chance to return this sad favor to yet another country.

(To those who don't understand, alt.callahans is a virtual bar... this is thus written as a toast, which would be followed by pitching my glass in the fireplace.)

One thing I do miss about alt.callahans...

... are the PLAQUE posts, to honor the dead. It's something to do, when there's literally nothing you can do.

To too-damn-many people - 199 at the last count I saw - murdered in Madrid, and to the hundreds and hundreds of injured...

And to the many multiples of people with gaps in their lives, and pain in their hearts.

And finally... to justice. I hope it comes swiftly and surely.

Let's all remember that some 900 days ago, Spain stood and mourned for us... and hope that there will never be a chance to return this sad favor to yet another country.

(To those who don't understand, alt.callahans is a virtual bar... this is thus written as a toast, which would be followed by pitching my glass in the fireplace.)